A Few Things About Street Fighter 4
Saturday, February 21, 2009 at 10:24PM Street Fighter 4 is finally here, with several perfect 100/100 reviews. Here's a few things I noticed about the game.
In ranked matches, you can see the opponent's name before the match and kick them or reject the challenge. This allows you to cherry pick who you fight and negates the entire purpose of a ranked match.
In ranked matches (well, all matches) there is no double blind character select. This means the optimum strategy is often to wait until the opponent chooses first so you can counter-pick. This is a very annoying situation.
When lag inevitably happens in an online fighting game, there are different ways to handle it. Some SF4 matches I played had large input delay, maybe as high as 15 frames. This is the time between your button press and seeing the effect happen. Adding input delay is really the worst way to handle lag. GGPO's amazing netcode shows that avoiding input delay and hiding lag in other ways is the way to go. That technology has been readily available for years, so it's disappointing to feel input delay in an online match.
The button config screen is "the wrong way." The right way is for the screen to list functions, then you press the buttons you want to assign. The wrong way is to list buttons, then you scroll through lists of functions to assign. The reason that one way is right and the other way is wrong is pretty clear when you watch people try to configure buttons. I've had to watch what must be thousands of people do this over the years in all the tournaments I've helped run (not to mention local gatherings). When the config screen says "Jab" and requires you to press the button you want, you just press the upper left button on your stick (or whatever button on your gamepad). This is a one-step process. But if the screen lists "X" and then requires you to scroll through functions until you find jab, it requires a two step process. You have to know which button on your controller is labeled "X." When this screen is the right way, no one has to know if the upper left button happens to be X or A or B or whatever else.
If you think this is negligible, you have never seen people set buttons. The wrong way turns what should be a 3 second task into a fairly confusing affair. Yes I know the wrong way allows you to have lots of functions in your list, but this can be done the right way also.
On to gameplay issues. The jumps have strange acceleration to them. While that's subjective, look at Zangief's jump that seems to have the acceleration of a flea. (Incidentally, why does his splash not stay out the whole time in the air?). Also, getting hit out of the air is extremely floaty, which means it takes unusually long to get back to a state where you can actually move again. This "moving in jello" feel is reinforced by many throws that have dead time at the end when it seems like you should be able to move (see Vega's for example).
The size of the stages is extremely large relative to the size of the characters. This helps runaway tactics.
Optimizing for the 1% rather than the 99% case. There's two examples, the first is tech recover (quick get up from a knock down). 99% of the time, I want to get up fast, but this is the action that requires button presses. Why not admit that getting up fast is the intent and make it default, unless the player holds down some buttons to get up slow? That's how it works for Robo-Ky in Guilty Gear, by the way. Incidentally, don't the two kinds of get up timing only lessen the importance of knockdown by allowing you mess up the attacker's timing a bit? Like the decision to have large stages, this seems not to favor offense.
Next is the 2-button throw, a bad idea in fighting games with 2D gameplay. 3D Fighting games are different beasts, so they are excused here, but note that even Dead or Alive offers a macro to turn its 2 button throw into a 1 button throw...and maps that macro to a face button by default. Anyway, 2 button throws solve a non-problem that no one has ever actually had. That's the problem of accidentally throwing and being sad about it. Street Fighter 2, Guilty Gear series, and Street Fighter Alpha 2 all demonstrated that 1 button throws work just fine and don't actually create any problems. Adding a second button press just adds complexity where it's not necessary, and helps nothing. (Edit: it does add a throw whiff which could be a good thing, but simpler is still better...)
Other non-problems we might solve in 2D fighting games would be to make blocking 1 button and jumping 1 button (each are traditionally zero buttons). We certainly could add those button presses, but it would make more sense to reduce the button presses to as few as possible: zero to jump, zero to block, and one to throw.
It's especially unfortunate that Cammy's hooligan throw requires a 2-button throw in the middle to complete it. Why exactly is this necessary, rather than one button?
2 button throws actually introduce the problem of kara-throws, a bug from SF3 that we now have again in SF4. This is when you cancel a forward moving attack a frame or two into it with a throw command in order to greatly extend your throw range. Do the designers want a long throw range or do they not? If they don't kara throws shouldn't be in the game. If they do, then base throw ranges should be extended for all players, not just the ones who input a difficult command.
Another similar bug is the chain combo cancel bug. As an example, consider Sakura. Low short does cancel into special moves. But if you rapid fire the low short (do it 2 or 3 times quickly each one cancels the last) then you CANNOT cancel the last hit into a special. I'm not saying this is a problem at all, necessarily. This restriction is there for good reason: to prevent the game from degenerating into low short -> big damage stuff. It would make more sense to give players a reason to start combos with bigger moves sometimes. Guilty Gear does a great job of this by reducing your entire combo's damage by 20% for each low short. (Hey Guilty Gear players, I know I'm simplifying there.)
Ok so what's the problem, sounds good that you can't do low short, low short, special move, right? But you can do it. If you make the last short a link rather than a chain (do it slowly, but not so slow that it doesn't combo) then you can cancel it into a special move. So really, you can get around this restriction if only you have high dexterity skills. Now, this is also true in ST and SF HD Remix, but that's not so much intent as what we were stuck with. For an entirely new game, I'm surprised to see this still there. I'm even more surprised to see combos that use this in the challenge mode, meaning the developers know about it and accept that low short is really this powerful. SF4 Sakura, for example, can low short, (link), low short, ex shoryken, ultra. She can do a lot more than that, but you get the idea.
This issue of rapid fire moves using a bug to cancel into specials is actually minor compared to the next topic though, a topic that will dominate much of the game: link combos in general. The game is filled with difficult 1-frame links. These are moves that just barely combo into each other with 1/60th of a second timing. In high level play, players will master these and they become common. So Sakura doing low jab, (link), low fierce, short helicopter kick, (link) low short, ex shoryuken, ultra for 50% will be common. One friend of mine already does this combo in real matches after only 2 days of playing, as well as other scarily damaging combos off low short that involve hard links.
Other examples, Ryu can now link low short, low jab, low forward. He can also link low strong, low strong, low roundhouse. Linking is the name of the game, which actually makes the game closer to CvS2 than to 3s or ST. The effect of all these links is to hide the actual game behind an impenetrable wall of execution. If you practice (ie, develop 1p skills unrelated to strategy and unrelated to interaction with the opponent) then you gain access to the real game, a game of high damage off small hits, but only for the dexterous.
Of course some level of this is inherent in just about every fighting game. It's a question of how far to turn the knob towards 1p activities and away from strategy. Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo has dexterity requirements of course, but winning tournaments while using zero or very few link combos is entirely possible. That simply isn't the main focus of the game. The existence of many, many new links in SF4 shifts the focus toward that though.
Next up, we have ultras. All I'll really say here is that in real matches I find myself having to pump qcf x 2 over and over looking for the right moment to do the ultra. When I find that moment, I have to complete the qcf x 2 command with PPP. Let's hope I don't press PP in those moments, because that command gives me a super, which is an entirely different move. I'm not sure what qcf x 2 + PPP is doing in a "casual friendly game" in the first place.
Then there's focus canceling. The idea of paying half your meter to cancel a move is taken from Guilty Gear where it was called roman canceling. It's a wonderful mechanic in Guilty Gear, by the way. The command in that game is press any three buttons--I use PPP. This is actually pretty natural because when using a joystick, your right hand's natural resting position is on those PPP buttons usually. In SF4, the roman cancel command is medium punch + medium kick, then tap forward, forward. This is really awkward and a whole lot of inputs for one decision (the decision to roman cancel). I wish I could map this command to PPP or something, rather than having to do button presses AND double taps. There's many combos involving this that you'll need to be able to do to be competitive, so I'm not sure why this ended up requiring so many extraneous inputs.
When I read about the 100/100 scores, I see again and again how "simple and elegant" the game is. Two super meters, a 3-tier focus attack system, and all the complications above seem to fly in the face of that. Even more though, I hear how "casual friendly" it is. This is deeply mysterious and I'm not sure why this so often claimed. Not every game has to be casual friendly, so it would seem more honest to just explain how casual unfriendly all these things are. Qcf x 2 +PPP all the time, extra button presses to throw, extra button presses to roman cancel, and many, many extremely difficult link combos work in concert to create that impenetrable wall of execution between you and the actual game (the interaction between you and your opponent). I wish we could get rid of all this stuff and focus more on the gameplay itself.
Edit: I forgot to mention two more things. First, the unlocks. I'm very surprised to see basic functionality of the multiplayer game--the characters--locked behind tedious 1p tasks. I had to pay a tax of fighting the computer on easiest for long time just to get the core features of the game. (I did this picture-in-picture while watching episodes of Frasier.) I'm fully aware that casual players love unlocks, and that's why non-essential content like costumes, movies, icons, and titles are all perfectly fine to give as rewards for playing 1p content. But the *characters*? This steps on the toes of those wanting to play the multiplayer game by making our first experience with the game a very boring one. I wanted to hire a MMO gold farmer to do this for me.
And the last thing I should have mentioned here is that despite all these many problems, there is fun to be had in the game...
Reader Comments (275)
Hi Sirlin,
I really enjoyed reading your article and i find your points very thought out and valid especially with your tournament background and being part of the production team on HDR.
I had a question about people posting about just telling you to bind a 7th button for 1 button throwing so you can solve your issue. My question is, would it even be legal for you do something like that at a tournament like EVO? I would think you would only be allowed to use a 6 button format.
"The reason I think the first approach is better is that the balance can be fixed either way, so you might as well go with the solid feel. It's kind of painful going through all this isn't it? That's what happens when we disagree on a premise, it requires taking several steps back. You still could claim that SF4 physics are perfectly fine. But I'm saying you can't claim that no one can even make a statement about whether it's fine and I'm also saying that making such a statement does not even require there to be negative gameplay consequences (though there may be those anyway)."
I understand the analogy... but I don't know where the debate can go from here. You've sufficiently proven that there's no proof that there is no problem, but that still doesn't imply that there is a problem. A lot of this is based on the inability to quanitize a 'feel'. All I can really do is stand by saying the jumps and movement feel fine to me - its different, yes, but that's not important.
Your example of the crazy game with the crazy jumps and the system built around them identifies that there doesn't need to be any gameplay issues, but it is still an exaggeration of the current state. If I explore the given that 'the jumps feel weird in sf4', then the only real conclusion I end up with is 'the jumps feel weird in sf4'. I'm not sure if there's any more informaiton to extract from this.
Anyway, nice discussing this with you - maybe SF4 will grow on you a bit. (and blanka's model is crap, yes)
Response by Sirlin: Yes, yes to all of that. I wish other posters would understand what you do. It is possible to make a claim that things feel weird, it really is. It's also possible that it doesn't hurt gameplay (though it might!). With various wrong thinking out of the way, that only leaves the question of "but seriously, does it actually feel weird or not?" Read my response to the comment a few before this one about 'stuck in jello' for some attempts to quantify.
100% agreed on the 1 frame linking, that is incredibly frustrating...maddening! I don't know how these high level players can pull this stuff off consistently- I feel like no matter how good you are, you can't time yourself to 1/60th of a second consistently, but...i guess I must be wrong. I can pull these off only like 10% of the time, and that's just in training mode... I can practice this all day, and just when I get 3 good ones in a row and think i'm getting it- it goes back to feeling completely random again... And, I mean...my timing isn't bad by any means... I can do kara cancels and do stuff like linking Guile's SB to Ultra, FADC to Ultra, etc... I'm not saying that takes the most skill in the world, but if I can do that consistently and linking combos I get like 10% of the time, something is messed up in my book.
The whole reason they have stuff like kara canceling is because they purposely gave players a small frame buffer between which to enter commands like 2 buttons simultaneously- because to do them at EXACTLY the same time in one frame would be too difficult... so... why the 1 frame links??! Haha, sorry but this one really gets to me...
i agree with most of the points here; especially that this is in fact NOT a casual friendly game, as you simply cant win without using the highly confusing multi tiered super move system and the focus cancelling which are simply out of the reach of most players. So its a very hardcore game. I do prefer the new throw system though; i hated the way it worked in ssf2X.
I think one of the problems is that there is a bigger emphasis on waiting to bang outa big showboaty killing move, and the use of gimmickry, sf alpha style; the less-is-more depth of the earlier games has gone. I'd like to see this game with the emphasis more on intelligent use of basic punches and kicks, with the focus cancel simplified and pushed right to the fore, and the super moves reduced in importance and simplified (1 super bar please is fine); i HATE waiting for those long cinematic anims. I KNOW you are going to hit me enough already, jesus, do i have to really sit through this again....
things i DO like though; the EX move system i like using, i like he new throws as i said, and Abel. Just everything Abel. Damn. Hes the best thing in years.
Wow... I COMPLETELY disagree with you, Sirlin, on the 2-button throws (as far as standard throws... the cammy one is total BS).
I always hate when I'm up against an opponent and I'm about to unleash a fat combo, only to accidentally throw my opponent.
You claim no one feels sad about this... and you know, you're probably right. But that's only because throw damage is so stupidly high in SF2 and other iterations.
Additionally, your follow up paragraph about adding a button to blocks and jumps is idiotic. There's a clear difference. You see, in SF2, the SINGLE throw buttons are also tied to attacks. So if you're up against your opponent and you want use one of your attacks, chances are, you'll be forced into throwing your opponent. You really have no say. With the 2 button throws, you have the option to throw or to simply play as you normally would.
It's not like UP or BACK is tied to anything worthwhile other than their respective JUMP and BLOCK commands. Therefore, a decision never needs to be made as to what UP or BACK does.
I see your point, but it just comes off as idiotic when you think about it.
...
I do agree with many of your statements, though. But I have 2 questions:
1. Don't you think this is the BEST first-iteration of a main-series Street Fighter game?
2. If, instead of the 2-button throw command, they added a 7th "throw" button... would this please you? Seems like it'd be awful to me. But apparently you think 2-button commands are hard.
Response by Sirlin: As I said like 3 times so far in this very thread, adding a 7th button to throw is completely absurd. 6 buttons in a game is quite enough and my joystick doesn't even have a 7th button, nor do I want one. So we can write off that idea completely. Next, I think you fall into a common trap with argument about being close to the opponent and not being able to do a move in SF2/A2/GGXX (you'll get a throw instead). This is only a problem in your head, not in actual games. As an example, you are Ken and standing next to your opponent and get a free chance to hit. What do you do? You do stand fierce, dragon punch. You do neutral fierce, so there's no actual problem. Chun li might want to do low forward, low roundhouse combo or something. Again, no actual problem. If you look hard into the edge cases, you can scrape up a few times when there is a problem, it's the 1% case as opposed to the 99% case. Even in the 1% case, you can still do what you want as an expert with a little extra effort. But in the 99% case, there problem of throwing when you don't want is totally imaginary.
To your comment of "I guess you think it's too hard to press 2 buttons," surely you realize I have won tournaments and have the ability to press two buttons. What if a new first person shooter came out with a 2 button shoot? The objection isn't that people can't press 2 buttons. The objection is there is no real reason to have the extra button press. The only valid thing people have mentioned here is a throw whiff (which cvs2 has, by the way, on 1-button throws anyway) and while that is something, it seems very minor compared to the painful inelegance of making a basic function of the game that happens constantly be more buttons than it needs to be...more buttons than it was in other games that had...no...problem...in real matches. (Yes I know it has problems you imagine in your head though.)
I completely disagree about the 2-button throws. (aside from Cammy's... that's BS)
I think they're superior to 1-button throws that are tied to other Punches or Kicks. Why not give the player the option to throw or to do a regular combo when up against their opponent? Makes no sense.
Which then negates your sarcastic follow up paragraph about adding button presses for Blocks and Jumps. The difference here is that UP and BACK aren't tied to anything other than those 2 things. Never are you in a situation where you're forced into a jump or unable to jump because UP now does something else. By tying single-button throws to what is already a punch or kick just makes you unable to use that attack when immediately up close.
Would you prefer a 7th button for throwing? I wouldn't.
...
Also, I have a hard time taking this serious from the guy that brought us the WORST AKUMA EVER.
And also HDRemix has plenty of online issues. Course, the foundation is way better.
Response by Sirlin: read my response to aronous a few comments below about throws. The problem you state does not exist in real matches, only in your head. When you're near an opponent in a game with 1 button throw, you just do a combo. It's perfectly fine and has been for 20 years now.
You should learn about the concept of an ad hominem attack. For example, someone says "I think the knockdown in this game is too long." You respond "in a completely different game, I don't like Akuma's balance, therefore I disagree." Some other game's balance isn't relevant. Anything about me personally is not relevant, you'd have to respond to the claims themselves to have a valid argument. You make a similar mistake about HD Remix's networking. Are you trying to imply that maybe I wrote the networking code myself? And even if I did, does that lead you to the conclusion that it's ok for SF4 to let you see who you play in a ranked match, then kick them? That's an ad hominem attack, where you refer to me personally (in a ridiculous and wrong way, by the way) as some kind of basis to refute a point.
You are the worst kind of poster on this site, unable to separate discussion of issues from the person saying those issues.
Well, you worked in SF2HD right? You understand deeply all the fighting mechanics and probably always get the db,df,db,uf+k or p specials in alpha, even finished alpha 3 with t.hawk and dee jay!
This is not my case. I play fighters for a lot, so Guilty gears, Sf´s, Mk´s, Kof´s, Garou, FF´s, SC´s, TK´s, And mostly Rival Schools are things I know, even a bit of Arcana Heart. But there is some choices that hurt me too much.
In SF4 I did not see any real change in the characters, like after all this years, Blank did not learned any new trick?
And I´m happy T.Hawk did not maked to SF4, I would hat to see him so down again. In Alpha he is the worst choice, with striks that ou never links and hardly gets unblocked. I finished with cody, mika or karin, but DeeJay and T.Hawk are too weak to fight, too slow, too uneffective.
And why SF blocked all the characters from SF3? Sean, Alex, Elena and others are well know and loved, but not for capcom I think.
And, fo the friendly part, tell me, you who are a big fan just like me, Zangief, T.Hawk, they are slow, gets no good way to avoid projectiles(poor T.Hawk) and always need to get really close, so, why keep the hard 720°specials? hcf or hcb are not that easy to pull, and yet are much more firendly than 720° and really would drag more people to play as the slow characters, than to play with the big japan(Ryu/Ken/Sakura/Dan/Gouki/Gouken).
T.hawk could really be like Mexican Typhon, a rip for mugen with much more effective strikes for this faster fights from these days
if they come just like in alpha, so, rest in peace dear Jamaican Kick boxer and proud native fighter.
Damn, I don't even know where to begin with this. I know, I'll start by referring back to old faithful, Street Fighter 3. I'm sorry, did everyone forget there was a 3 after 2? Considering the fact that SF 3 was hugely successful, that it improved upon the basics of Street Fighter 2 (and all the Alphas), and that every Japanese arcade had at least 85 of these machines lined up like a refrigerator showroom floor , I would have to say SF 4 is definitely a huge step in the right direction for Capcom.
Now, looking at SF 4, we see a very similar control scheme, hell, an identical control scheme with a few added quirks, like the focus system and 3 button ultras (ooh, ultra difficult! Shut your face). And aside from controls, which really are the most important part of fighting games, we have character response time, combo manipulation, good looks, and overall fun factor. SF 4 does exceedingly well in all these categories, just like its predecessor, except of course for the 3D aspect. Oh, and as far as accessibility, your argument is that it's harder than SF 2? Compared to SF 3 and again all the Alphas, it's definitely the easiest so far. So really, comparing SF 4 to old, outdated, crappy ass SF 2 is like comparing the PS3 to the PS1. "This PS3 is so much harder to hook up to my HDTV than my PS1 was back in, what was it, 1998?"
And let’s bring in another similar competitor, VF 5. Also hugely successful, and in my opinion one of the best fighting games of all time. Now as far as accessibility goes for this title, it’s definitely on the steep side, but regardless, still managed to garner a huge fan base and considerably high scores.
In conclusion, you're just angry/jealous/angry that there's a new playboy in town that looks 10x better than your HD remake and he's roundin up all the ladies.
Response by Sirlin: Ah, the familiar ad hominem attack at the end, nice. I'm just jealous/angry, etc so I can't even make a statement about game design. Do you realize how poorly this reflects on you to use a personal attack like that?
SF3 series is actually the worst selling SF ever. Unfortunately, SFEX is the best selling SF series though, so I guess we can drop the idea of sales anyway. Besides, what if I said "The movie Independence Day has poor character development." Would you respond, "It sold a lot, therefore it has good character development"? No you wouldn't. Likewise 3s selling a lot (it didn't!) is not really a proof about 2-button throws. You'd have to discuss the actual issue itself, such as the 1 button throw giving the player the simplest possible command for something that happens constantly, and how it doesn't actually cause problems because you can still combo when close rather than throw, if you want.
Sirlin I agree with just about everything you have said though I have not noticed te jump animation thing. I also disagree with the idea that throwing should be one button, I find I have better control over what I want to do. I am planning on getting the TE arcade stick but I have to say that most of these combos are a true PITA. I have to psuedo button mash just to pull off some of the basic ones. The game is built around the arcade stick face button layout and the ability to use at least four fingers to input commands. The problem then becomes that on pads you are all but required to GIVE UP control in order to perform various moves because you run out of buttons to use.
The whole super vs ultra thing is a bit tricky, the simplest solution is to make the button inputs entirely different rather than making it possible to screw up because you missed a punch or a kick button. They don't even need to be "double" commands something as simple as down back forward punch or kick.
Much of the problem in my mind with 2d fighters (not just sf) is that too many of the moves overlap each other! Heck in HDRemix I can perform Balrog's (The Boxer) super move in my sleep, with my eyes closed; however Chun-li and every other character with these charge back-frward, back-forward type super moves gives me problems because they have moves that overlap the super move inputs!
I would echo your opinion on strategy vs executiion/dexterity by using the example of the modern Ninja Gaiden games. There is not a single combo I cannot perform in that game, the game clearly is focused on when to use combos rather than the mere act of using them. Fighting games tend to be the exact opposite as there seems to be a belief amongst the creators of these types of games that execution is the point rather than means to an end.
I agree with most. especially the 2 button throw. I've always been a big thrower and i still dont have my reaction time set to the 2 shorts, which are set to my triggers anyway which makes it even harder .
I diasagree with the online/lag opinion . I have been preety impressed by international connections. It slows down a bit but it is still quite playable even with 2 bars ,although I try to make 3 the minimum
I havent even really gotten into the cancelling yet so i dont really know. But I'm doing well online without it so far
Most of this stuff I don't really agree with, but can you explain one thing to me? Why does it matter if QCFx2 +PP/QCFx2+PPP are similar commands? They have it set as a shortcut to where you can do 3 punches in one button press, so them overlapping seems like a weird complaint....I've played a bunch and never had any problem at all with doing those two commands...it's pretty hard to mess it up. What am I missing? How is this a complaint when there's a button for a 3-in-one punches? thanks
Response by Sirlin: To really play seriously, you're using a joystick. A shortcut to do PPP on a *seventh* button doesn't help. That's even more complicated and many sticks, like mine, do not even have a 7th face button. I find it very common to get a qcf x 2 + PP rather than PPP, which wastes an entire super meter and has a different effect than intended. It seems like in 2009, we should know to avoid such similar, overlapping commands, especially when it affects every character in the game. :(
eh. Lots of nitpicky stuff. A few good points. Sirlin opinion is not law, folks.
Touche, Sirlin. But that doesn't change the fact that I have to THINK about keeping my stick neutral when I'm standing next to my opponent, rather than playing naturally and maybe holding FORWARD towards them (you know, setting up a DP). It's more of a problem them simply knowing that I have to press 2 buttons if I want to throw.
But to each their own. I personally don't see this as a problem in any way. It's just another way of doing it.
Also, really, you could just press LP+LK neutral and get a throw... whereas with the single button press you still have to press Back or Forward+P or K... so it's arguable similar.
And I totally respect you. I just feel that these 2 SF4 articles seem a little whiny, rather than constructive criticism. And the whine mostly spawns from the complaints that aren't really problems, but rather changes you don't like (IE, Zangief's jumping, Rose's combos, etc).
Response by Sirlin: I guess we have a very different definition of "whiny." If Zangief's jump feels completely wrong, having huge acceleration for a big guy, combined with the new awkwardness of splash not staying out long enough, I consider that a valid thing to mention. You consider it "whining." If you label these things "whiny" then it's difficult to critique anything, and it's difficult to arrive any kind of definition of what a good-feeling jump would be like when making new games.
Oh Sirlin... I was only being snarky with my HDRemix Akuma remark. heh Don't get too upset. :) I actually LOVE what you did with a few of the characters.
Though, your calling me out for bringing up something you did in another Street Fighter doesn't make much sense, considering half your complaints/issues with SF4 are simply changes or differences in mechanics or physics. Rather than an actual bug or problem with the game.
But again, sorry if you took my Akuma remark too seriously (hell it was a sentence of my post).
Finally, I do see your position on the Throwing (though, why it differs between 2D and 3D fighting games is beyond me)... I just find it easier to think about a simple 2-button press when I decide to throw than keeping my stick neutral (especially at times when I'm not sure I'm exactly in throwing range).
I don't think either way is necessarily correct or incorrect. They're simply just different. And I feel that the 2-button press only avoids ANY accidentals, in my head or otherwise.
It shouldn't really be surprising that many/most reviews would say that SF4 is "casual friendly" or "best game ever" or whatever else. It's a fairly safe bet that your average "video game reviewer" isn't a particularly good fighting game player, and as such isn't really in a position to discuss the genre in a manner that is relevant to you or I. That person (and many/most of those "casual players") often invests much of their strategy in jumping around and leading in with fierce and roundhouse. Maybe they'll throw out some specials in a predictable manner. They probably wouldn't go for those link combos even if you could chain them instead.
I mean, I still read things about people freaking out about the 3D graphics as if that would have an effect on the game play. What? Most people who talk about fighting games have no fundamental understanding of the mechanics, much less what kind of strategy is involved. Most people still refer to games like Guilty Gear as "button mashers" (if not all fighting games in general).
In the sense that the "casual player" is someone with absolutely zero interest in actually learning the game, SF4 probably is fairly accessible. If you're playing against like-minded individuals, SF4 is simple enough at that level to be entertaining. The players really getting screwed are that layer between "casual" and "hardcore", people are interested in getting better but who aren't necessarily people who can execute anything that has a 1 frame window of opportunity.
Now, I actually think SF4 is a fairly fun game, and I don't even particularly like Capcom fighters. That said, I think most of its popularity revolves around brand recognition and nostalgia, as well as the fact that it's (seemingly) not as technical as many other series. These are the primary reasons why any SF title is going to get such awesome reviews. Even if the reviewer talks about something like HD Remix and how they hoped that the "balance wouldn't get screwed up", it's more than likely that said reviewer wouldn't realize how the "balance" had been changed unless you added in 200% larger fireballs or something immediately obvious to the most casual observer.
Bottom line, you make a lot of excellent points, but I'm not sure why you think any reviewer would actually pick apart the game and break it down in a way that would matter to anyone but the lowest common denominator. I get surprised if reviewers can even pronounce the character names correctly or get their facts straight; I'm certainly not expecting them to discuss difficult 1 frame links. Would it be awesome if they got people who actually played these games competitively to write reviews for fighting games? Yes. Maybe then we could get a review that was worth reading. To them it's "simple and elegant" because they aren't scratching past the surface of the game, or possibly even the brand. Certainly a lot of people act like this is the first fighter with 2D game play since the last SF.
That seems odd....so if you are using a stick you can't do any of the 3 punches in one button since most sticks only have 6 face buttons? Well I can see what you mean now. I would probably mess it up too if I were trying to do that consistently. Maybe the only bonus to using a controller over a stick? lol. Thanks for explaining
and btw I really liked HDR. My complaints with the game are mostly with all the bugs and network errors, but that's not on you so GJ
You can combo when close rather than throw? OK, how about the fact that you can block combos and not throws. The fact that throws come out by accident, and combos do not. The only thing that 2 button throws (or grabs) do is reduce button mashing success rate, making people think before they act (or push, in this case). And you're right, it was in poor taste to personally attack you, and for that I apologize, but it's what I was thinking at the moment, and the way you were writing made it seem like you were angry/jealous to me (attacking pretty much every aspect of a fine game like SF4 with no reserve an seemingly much bias). All I'll say is every little thing you found wrong with the game, including the 3 button ultra's can be circumvented by a little something I like to call "practice". It goes a long way, you should know that. And as for SF 3 sales numbers, I never said it sold well, I said it was hugely successful, meaning popular amongst fighting game fanatics, or those that want to be taken seriously. The mechanics were near perfect. The moves reflected some old school ones, including the charging class and hadouken class, and felt easy to execute (somewhat too easy in some cases **super combos**). I think SF 4 did a great job of building on that foundation.
Huh I'm not sure I agree with you on everything, Sirlin.
Like others on this board, I like the 2-button throws. Also, the 2 different stand-up times are nice. And NO WAY should the fast get-up be default. There is strategy in changing the speed in which you get up.
Plus, I think if you had the fast get-up as default you see scrubs dying even faster.
I love what you did with HDRemix, man. And I value your position on this game. But I do feel that some of these things you complain about aren't actually problems, they're just not what you're used to.
I do have to say it, though
Street Fighter IV is the best FIRST iteration of a SF series. Meaning, it's better/more solid than Alpha 1, Street Fighter III and SF2 (obviously) were initially.
Still hoping they simply patch/balance via download updates, rather than releasing a bunch of iterations with new titles and 2 new characters.
Hello Sirlin,
"I once saw a study, don't have it anymore, that compared jumps in platform games. There are many different kind of jumps in different platform games, of course. I'll go ahead and make the controversial(??) claim that some don't feel right. The study found that all the games that had jumps most people liked had almost exactly the same hangtime."
The article you mentioned is by fellow SF player and God of War combat designer, Derek Daniels. The link can be found here: http://lowfierce.blogspot.com/2006/06/why-some-games-feel-better-than-others.html . I agree with your notion that "feeling" in games is not a totally subjective affair... there are certainly games that are unnatural, unintuitive, unresponsive, or overall wrong. For anyone who doubts that concept, I suggest you to read Derek's four part series. He knows what he's talking about... afterall, the guy is responsible for GoW's great combat system.
As per your question, game mechanics do not fall under a "it's just preference" umbrella. While it may be a player's preference to play shooters with cover systems than arcade-shooters, within that subset, there are good cover mechanics like Gears and Rainbow Six, and really bad ones like Kane & Lynch. Does anyone actually prefer to hump a wall until their character finally decides to use it as cover? No, it's clunky, unresponsive, and plain poor game design. SF4's homogenized jumps, while I wouldn't go so far as to call it poor, is definitely slow and weird.
Also, I see a lot of people interpreting the criticisms that Sirlin made as his "hatred" of the game. While I haven't seen Sirlin dispute this claim (you don't hate it, do you?), I myself have the same exact criticisms but I still like the game very much. Of course, I hope they fix some of the immediate problems (no double blind, cherry picking ranked matches) with a patch, and the other problems in the next iteration.
Response by Sirlin: Excellent points. It's amazing to see people's stance that everything is preference, nothing is better or worse than anything else. That idea is a real insult to people like you and Derek Daniels who did an A-quality job on tuning God of War. No, strike that, A+ quality. It's not like we could replace you with people off the street who chose any old collection of jump timings, cancel timings, startup timings, etc.
No I don't hate SF4. I have played it quite a bit and found fun in it. All my criticisms remain, and there are many things that disappoint me, but I have been playing it and having fun still.
Oops... I replied to both mine and Joe's responses. (I had just made a joke about HDRemix Akuma to my bro... so I thought I had snuck it in my initial post).
My bad, disregard my last post I guess. :)