A Few Things About Street Fighter 4
Saturday, February 21, 2009 at 10:24PM Street Fighter 4 is finally here, with several perfect 100/100 reviews. Here's a few things I noticed about the game.
In ranked matches, you can see the opponent's name before the match and kick them or reject the challenge. This allows you to cherry pick who you fight and negates the entire purpose of a ranked match.
In ranked matches (well, all matches) there is no double blind character select. This means the optimum strategy is often to wait until the opponent chooses first so you can counter-pick. This is a very annoying situation.
When lag inevitably happens in an online fighting game, there are different ways to handle it. Some SF4 matches I played had large input delay, maybe as high as 15 frames. This is the time between your button press and seeing the effect happen. Adding input delay is really the worst way to handle lag. GGPO's amazing netcode shows that avoiding input delay and hiding lag in other ways is the way to go. That technology has been readily available for years, so it's disappointing to feel input delay in an online match.
The button config screen is "the wrong way." The right way is for the screen to list functions, then you press the buttons you want to assign. The wrong way is to list buttons, then you scroll through lists of functions to assign. The reason that one way is right and the other way is wrong is pretty clear when you watch people try to configure buttons. I've had to watch what must be thousands of people do this over the years in all the tournaments I've helped run (not to mention local gatherings). When the config screen says "Jab" and requires you to press the button you want, you just press the upper left button on your stick (or whatever button on your gamepad). This is a one-step process. But if the screen lists "X" and then requires you to scroll through functions until you find jab, it requires a two step process. You have to know which button on your controller is labeled "X." When this screen is the right way, no one has to know if the upper left button happens to be X or A or B or whatever else.
If you think this is negligible, you have never seen people set buttons. The wrong way turns what should be a 3 second task into a fairly confusing affair. Yes I know the wrong way allows you to have lots of functions in your list, but this can be done the right way also.
On to gameplay issues. The jumps have strange acceleration to them. While that's subjective, look at Zangief's jump that seems to have the acceleration of a flea. (Incidentally, why does his splash not stay out the whole time in the air?). Also, getting hit out of the air is extremely floaty, which means it takes unusually long to get back to a state where you can actually move again. This "moving in jello" feel is reinforced by many throws that have dead time at the end when it seems like you should be able to move (see Vega's for example).
The size of the stages is extremely large relative to the size of the characters. This helps runaway tactics.
Optimizing for the 1% rather than the 99% case. There's two examples, the first is tech recover (quick get up from a knock down). 99% of the time, I want to get up fast, but this is the action that requires button presses. Why not admit that getting up fast is the intent and make it default, unless the player holds down some buttons to get up slow? That's how it works for Robo-Ky in Guilty Gear, by the way. Incidentally, don't the two kinds of get up timing only lessen the importance of knockdown by allowing you mess up the attacker's timing a bit? Like the decision to have large stages, this seems not to favor offense.
Next is the 2-button throw, a bad idea in fighting games with 2D gameplay. 3D Fighting games are different beasts, so they are excused here, but note that even Dead or Alive offers a macro to turn its 2 button throw into a 1 button throw...and maps that macro to a face button by default. Anyway, 2 button throws solve a non-problem that no one has ever actually had. That's the problem of accidentally throwing and being sad about it. Street Fighter 2, Guilty Gear series, and Street Fighter Alpha 2 all demonstrated that 1 button throws work just fine and don't actually create any problems. Adding a second button press just adds complexity where it's not necessary, and helps nothing. (Edit: it does add a throw whiff which could be a good thing, but simpler is still better...)
Other non-problems we might solve in 2D fighting games would be to make blocking 1 button and jumping 1 button (each are traditionally zero buttons). We certainly could add those button presses, but it would make more sense to reduce the button presses to as few as possible: zero to jump, zero to block, and one to throw.
It's especially unfortunate that Cammy's hooligan throw requires a 2-button throw in the middle to complete it. Why exactly is this necessary, rather than one button?
2 button throws actually introduce the problem of kara-throws, a bug from SF3 that we now have again in SF4. This is when you cancel a forward moving attack a frame or two into it with a throw command in order to greatly extend your throw range. Do the designers want a long throw range or do they not? If they don't kara throws shouldn't be in the game. If they do, then base throw ranges should be extended for all players, not just the ones who input a difficult command.
Another similar bug is the chain combo cancel bug. As an example, consider Sakura. Low short does cancel into special moves. But if you rapid fire the low short (do it 2 or 3 times quickly each one cancels the last) then you CANNOT cancel the last hit into a special. I'm not saying this is a problem at all, necessarily. This restriction is there for good reason: to prevent the game from degenerating into low short -> big damage stuff. It would make more sense to give players a reason to start combos with bigger moves sometimes. Guilty Gear does a great job of this by reducing your entire combo's damage by 20% for each low short. (Hey Guilty Gear players, I know I'm simplifying there.)
Ok so what's the problem, sounds good that you can't do low short, low short, special move, right? But you can do it. If you make the last short a link rather than a chain (do it slowly, but not so slow that it doesn't combo) then you can cancel it into a special move. So really, you can get around this restriction if only you have high dexterity skills. Now, this is also true in ST and SF HD Remix, but that's not so much intent as what we were stuck with. For an entirely new game, I'm surprised to see this still there. I'm even more surprised to see combos that use this in the challenge mode, meaning the developers know about it and accept that low short is really this powerful. SF4 Sakura, for example, can low short, (link), low short, ex shoryken, ultra. She can do a lot more than that, but you get the idea.
This issue of rapid fire moves using a bug to cancel into specials is actually minor compared to the next topic though, a topic that will dominate much of the game: link combos in general. The game is filled with difficult 1-frame links. These are moves that just barely combo into each other with 1/60th of a second timing. In high level play, players will master these and they become common. So Sakura doing low jab, (link), low fierce, short helicopter kick, (link) low short, ex shoryuken, ultra for 50% will be common. One friend of mine already does this combo in real matches after only 2 days of playing, as well as other scarily damaging combos off low short that involve hard links.
Other examples, Ryu can now link low short, low jab, low forward. He can also link low strong, low strong, low roundhouse. Linking is the name of the game, which actually makes the game closer to CvS2 than to 3s or ST. The effect of all these links is to hide the actual game behind an impenetrable wall of execution. If you practice (ie, develop 1p skills unrelated to strategy and unrelated to interaction with the opponent) then you gain access to the real game, a game of high damage off small hits, but only for the dexterous.
Of course some level of this is inherent in just about every fighting game. It's a question of how far to turn the knob towards 1p activities and away from strategy. Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo has dexterity requirements of course, but winning tournaments while using zero or very few link combos is entirely possible. That simply isn't the main focus of the game. The existence of many, many new links in SF4 shifts the focus toward that though.
Next up, we have ultras. All I'll really say here is that in real matches I find myself having to pump qcf x 2 over and over looking for the right moment to do the ultra. When I find that moment, I have to complete the qcf x 2 command with PPP. Let's hope I don't press PP in those moments, because that command gives me a super, which is an entirely different move. I'm not sure what qcf x 2 + PPP is doing in a "casual friendly game" in the first place.
Then there's focus canceling. The idea of paying half your meter to cancel a move is taken from Guilty Gear where it was called roman canceling. It's a wonderful mechanic in Guilty Gear, by the way. The command in that game is press any three buttons--I use PPP. This is actually pretty natural because when using a joystick, your right hand's natural resting position is on those PPP buttons usually. In SF4, the roman cancel command is medium punch + medium kick, then tap forward, forward. This is really awkward and a whole lot of inputs for one decision (the decision to roman cancel). I wish I could map this command to PPP or something, rather than having to do button presses AND double taps. There's many combos involving this that you'll need to be able to do to be competitive, so I'm not sure why this ended up requiring so many extraneous inputs.
When I read about the 100/100 scores, I see again and again how "simple and elegant" the game is. Two super meters, a 3-tier focus attack system, and all the complications above seem to fly in the face of that. Even more though, I hear how "casual friendly" it is. This is deeply mysterious and I'm not sure why this so often claimed. Not every game has to be casual friendly, so it would seem more honest to just explain how casual unfriendly all these things are. Qcf x 2 +PPP all the time, extra button presses to throw, extra button presses to roman cancel, and many, many extremely difficult link combos work in concert to create that impenetrable wall of execution between you and the actual game (the interaction between you and your opponent). I wish we could get rid of all this stuff and focus more on the gameplay itself.
Edit: I forgot to mention two more things. First, the unlocks. I'm very surprised to see basic functionality of the multiplayer game--the characters--locked behind tedious 1p tasks. I had to pay a tax of fighting the computer on easiest for long time just to get the core features of the game. (I did this picture-in-picture while watching episodes of Frasier.) I'm fully aware that casual players love unlocks, and that's why non-essential content like costumes, movies, icons, and titles are all perfectly fine to give as rewards for playing 1p content. But the *characters*? This steps on the toes of those wanting to play the multiplayer game by making our first experience with the game a very boring one. I wanted to hire a MMO gold farmer to do this for me.
And the last thing I should have mentioned here is that despite all these many problems, there is fun to be had in the game...
Reader Comments (275)
Sirlin... Holy shit! ST is not any easier as far as inputs go, it's probably harder in ST...
I just don't understand you. Then you have some guy shitting on VF5 saying it would be a 5/10 by any other name, your readers are fucking idiots.
Response by Sirlin: ST has no qcf x 2 + PPP. It has no 2 button throws. No focus cancel requiring an immediate dash (a cancel of a cancel!). Ryu doesn't have to link low jab, low forward all the time. He doesn't have to link low strong, low roundhouse all the time. You don't have to press buttons every time you want to get up. ST would be nicer with easier inputs, sure, and I did my best on that, but don't you see all this stuff that's making it even more complicated and non-casual?
Just putting my 2 cents in as a casual player. I'm loving SF4. I'm certainly spending a lot more time with it than HD Remix or SF3.
I'm cool with not being able to do a FADC. It's kinda like how I'm cool with not being able to slam dunk or whatever. The way I see it, what makes SF so fun is that it's not a total mind game like chess or checkers or whatever. I like that execution plays a big part (I'm actually not a big fan of lenient reversals). Why is Daigo's super combo parry the most watched SF clip on youtube? Because it's hard and people know it, right?
what an erection for guilty gear he has uh? I disagree with you sirlin.
Response by Sirlin: Guilty Gear is a very complicated, very difficult game to play. That is neither here nor there in discussing the casual (un)friendlyness of SF4. It is ironic though that that super hardcore guilty gear makes roman canceling easier to do than this game.
I agree with a lot of what you said. Except the 2 button throw, not the kara part I agree with you there. I like knowing that if my opponent attempts a bad throw i can punish it, and a whiff creates that. Ya its more to push down, but don't most people rest their thumb and pointer finger on jab and short anyway? Worst comes to worst you can press them both down by laying the pointer on both buttons. and you said yourself that you can press down multiple buttons if your fingers lay on them naturally. Plus option-select throws can lead to crazy stuff (ST Chun-li case and point)
All that being said I relay support the rest of what you said, ESPECIALLY the not incorporating ggpo part.I don't know if its pride or laziness or what but its a sad loss for the game.
In any software project there are always cut corners and things that don't make the final build. Do we know why things like Bad Button Config, No Double Blind, Ranking Mode stuff, No Lobbies, etc. Didn't make it into the build? No. I doubt it was a developer going "Oh man, Let's screw the users and leave all this stuff out! Man I hate making good games!" It was probably like "We could add all this stuff in, add $50,000 to our dev costs and ship later." or "We have time to Add 4 new Characters or do all this stuff...I think the users would like new Characters" or "Wow this GGPO stuff is cool. But we have to decrese frame rate...to process it" We have no idea what the code looks underneath or how complicated it would have been to add that stuff.
Note: I'm not saying the decsions they did or didn't make are correct, but we have no idea what went though the dev process there.
As to the actual game mechanic complaints...obviously the developers over at Capcom disagree with your design philosphies. They believe that some amount of physical SF skills deserve to be rewarded. This is a differing of opinion, and there's not going to be anybody who wins this argument, because fundamently both people believe inherently different things (i.e. Physical skills vs. Strategy skills).
Claiming the game is "Casual Friendly" doesn't mean that they physical skill cap is going to be low. When reviewers say the game is "casual friendly" they simply mean, that two casual players who haven't been exposed to SF since SF2 on the SNES will be able to pick up the game and be familiar with it. All a casual player will do is Play vs. the CPU, Play vs. Their equally unskilled friend, Maybe play a Player Match online. To that extent the game is pretty "casual friendly"
Hey Dave, I'm one of the musicians who worked on HD Remix - I remixed the Fei Long theme. I really enjoyed this review and feel the same way overall. SF4 has been a lot of fun, but reversion to the old inputs (really bad chicken wing) and seemingly much harder combo windows in some cases has made it far more challenging. It's extremely annoying to do any move with a left shoulder button, as you pointed out (ie. PPP/KKK).
What do you think of Fei overall in SF4 now? Do you think that new command "throw" improves his game at all? From what I've seen, his CW has been severely nerfed and while his rekkas are really fast and go really far, they're not usually safe. I also can't even pull off his basic combos in SF4 for some reason, like MK -> flame kick.
Response by Sirlin: Hi, thanks for the music on HD Remix. I do not like Fei Long in SF4 at all. I really like the relentless rushdown pressure he has in HD Remix though. In SF4, he can't even do a 3-series of rekkas and be safe. The chicken wing doesn't even work anti air, or if you're super luck will accidentally hit for like a pixel anti air. Compare to juggling + flame kicks for big damage. Sigh. Chicken wing doesn't even hit very well against grounded opponents, it only seems work work at fairly set range...and it's not an overhead anymore either. His command grab, I don't really have an opinion on either way. It seems fine at first glance, shrug. Also, I'm sad that his stand fierce is so hard to cancel into rekkas. In HD Remix, his stand fierce is actually the hardest normal in the game to cancel into a special (yes, it really is, not making that up) and I tried to fix that, but it just wasn't possible because of the troubles of assembly code. I was hoping it wouldn't be so hard in SF4 though.
Most of these issues are pretty minor and while distracting they don't "break" the game. Online mode is however unplayable due to the way lag is handled. I also prefer the easier HD Remix moves (most of Zangief's throws, Fei's flying kick, etc). HD Remix is a better fighting game.
Ok, first of all, I really do not know how to write this post without the 'fear' of presenting myself as a kiss-ass of Sirlin's. So I am just going to be as frank as possible: I have absolutely 0.00% of ANYTHING to gain by giving props to David Sirlin. That's notion 1. Notion 2 is that I am going to attempt to be EXORBITANTLY OBJECTIVE in my Post. That is notion 2. Now that those two notions have been established, anyone with ANY cognition cannot say anything in regards to fallacies such as "Jada is trying to Kiss ass, etc." IF what I objectively think happens to gives credit and props to David Sirlin then that just means that credit goes to where credit is due and credit is absolutely due to Sirlin.
Now, I have been playing Street Fighter since forever. And even though I haven't kept up with any tournaments or major players, I am really really good in Street Fighter(ie.. Im sort of like a excellent basketball player who does not watch the NBA......btw, i am a SF "legend" in Flatbush in Brooklyn.) So after I DLED HDREMIX, my jaw just dropped to the floor! It was like all those issues I had with Street Fighter that I could not or did not need to put in words were addressed and the game was(and still is) absolutely incredible. SO THEN I did research on the game, and read a whole heck of a lot about Sirlin, came to this website, read about the such respectable battle Sirlin fought to get this game where it is, and I was like "O man, where was this type of guy in the industry before?!?!"
Anyway, while I was doing some research on Sirlin, I read his interview he did with videogamer.com and I read what he had to say(read: foreshadow) about Street Fighter 4. I said to myself "Please let Sirlin not be as smart as I think he is and let him be stupidly mistaken on this" and I completely brushed off what Sirlin said. I was the one mistaken, and I got Street Fighter 4, all so excited!
And guess what? Let me put it this way; the ISSUE(and it is a sincere issue) that I have with this Street Fighter 4 "rant" of Sirlin's is that he DID NOT RAISE ENOUGH ISSUES!
First of all, I am going to get to what is MOST important to ME; BALROG(ie BOXER)! I have been professional with my language so far, and I am going to say something not because I am lacking vocabulary or that I do not have the ability to construct another sentence to get my point across, BUT there is no other way to perfectly describe Balrog in SF4 except for: WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There are so many issues and from the forums that I have read so far, I am EXORBITANTLY and UNFORCEFULLY shocked how all these guppies(*ahem* "hardcore" fans) who just ate up whatever Capcom and the videogame media gave to them, and did not complain about Balrog! He has no rushes! Im sorry, yeah, he might have "rushes" but at the pace they are in Street Fighter 4, it is very fallacious to call them 'rushes'. How slow are his moves!!? How slow is Balrog overall?!?
Another issue that I have(I think its also with other characters) is during Balrog's headbutt grab; how come its only like 2 headbutts and he THROWS you across the stage?!??!? Balrog's most paramount move(arguably) is negated and turned into a generic throw! Fine. I'll 'accept' that but HOW COME I CAN'T THROW when I am holding TAP!?!?!?!?!?!? WTF!!!!!!!!!! Its so ridiculous and so awkward-looking when my opponent is crouching next to me, nearly TOUCHING my character, and I just sit there, not able to throw him because I am holding TAP! O' COME ON! This has to be a JOKE! There are other issues too such as how stupid it is when I do a super or a ultra, and if my opponent just crouches WITHOUT BLOCKING, he STILL DOES NOT GET HIT!?!?! Are you serious!??
And concerning the rest of the game, ALL of Sirlin's points are excellent. The game has a clunky feel to it and I am so flabbergasted when I read reviews stating stuff like "IMPECCABLE FEEL and CONTROLS!" Yeah right! Jumping is floaty and seems way too inconsistent, and online play, well, Sirlin stated a lot of the concerns(but did not mention how long it takes to fight an opponent whose's Connection meter is showing).
What is the best part about Sirlin's post(and remember, as I established, his whole post was excellent so do not underrate what I consider his best part) is how he perfectly described the feeling of unlocking the characters! I mean, I want to get straight to competitive play and not play the friggin single player game a superfluous amount of times to unlock the characters! I gave up after beating the storymode 2-3 times(I guess I will never unlock all of the characters, not to bad considering I play almost solely as Boxer)
Me and my friends were joking; "PLEASE let Capcom hire Sirlin to make a Street Fighter 4 HD Remix!" Sad that the game just came out.
What is more sad and what hurts me the most is that it has GREAT reviews, has amazing sales, and has A LOT, A LOT of people who really like it. And that is sad because the public just accepted a really subpar Street Fighter and which naturally leads to Capcom to JUSTIFIABLY think "hey, why fix something thats not broke?!"
And I feel sad that I sooner or later, I have to make myself to like the game, now that it seems that it is unfortunately soon going to be the "standard" Street Fighter game.
Also, the game is still fun, because after all, it IS Street Fighter. And I am a clear minority here but I COMPLETELY LOVE the Anime cutscenes and the whole concept of it. What annoys be though is that they are too short and feel really underdeveloped, just like the corny movie that came with the game(even though I loved the movie.. lol).
Later guys,
I am interested in sincere, non-sanctimonious, and thought-out responses!
I look forward towards reviewing Fantasy Strike when it comes out ...
S-Kill why not post a more substantial comment? :) You actually worked on the game and Sirlin did not.
Last comment which is echoed throughout (and is apparently Sirlin's pet peeve): yes the game does require a lot of dexterity. However the basic moves and target combos do not. People who cannot do Ultras wouldn't be able to do supers in HD: Remix. You are never going to get away from this unless you have one button fireballs. I was cursing the FADC commands when I first tried it. One hour later I can FADC into Ultra with Ryu 90% of the time. My brother can't, but he doesn't even understand zoning, reversals, etc.
He still finds the game incredibly fun.
PS: Yes the jumping sucks, this was mentioned back when the arcade game first came out. Hopefully they fix this.
Response by Sirlin: I think you're a difficult execution apologist. The supers in HD remix could have come out just as easily as SF4 if we didn't have so many technical constraints. And if they did, then there, solved. No qcf x 2 + PPP overlapping with qcf x 2 + PP. No focus cancel, dash cancels in place of a ggxx's single command, no Ryu low strong -> low roundhouse link, etc, etc. I look forward to reviewing the nothing at all that you will make...
Good review, though I'm curious about the "fun to be had" part. Can you elaborate on this? I'd rather hear this from you who thinks critically about things like this than read Gamespot et al. who copy/pastes random back-of-the-box lines given to them by publishers.
Also, it's good that you mentioned the character unlock problem after all (I was about to point out that you forgot that part). Unlockable characters are to me what 2-button throws are to you: one of the biggest deal breakers. People call me crazy when I say that unlockable tourney-legal characters have no business being in a fighting game. I'm glad there are some people out there who actually understand why that's a bad idea. It reminds me of the time when I bought Brawl on launch day and brought it home to play that dream Mario vs Sonic match-up with my friend, only to find that I first had to spend 10+ hours unlocking Sonic. What a waste of time that was.
~Z
Response by Sirlin: I think Ken and Ryu's have fun in them. They can fireball and dragon punch and crossup and do overheads, etc. Zangief's horribly implemented jump and splash feel terrible, but he is otherwise pretty fun. Long spd range, amazing lariat. He can do tricks with that from old games. Bison can attack safely with scissor kick, has a fast slide, and his moves generally work properly. Nice poke with stand forward and stand roundhouse. Rose feels almost solid, though I'm confused about what actually links with her. Links from A2 seem to not really work. Anyway, her new low strong (metaphorically speaking) is her ultra. It slices, it dices, it does everything you'd ever want. Opponent in the air? Free ultra. Opponent did a move? Free ultra. Opponent exists on the screen? Probably free ultra. This is fun in a semi-brokeny sort of way.
If you can slog past the bad, homogeneous jumps, the way too long knockdowns, the floaty air recovery, and of course the high execution requirements, there's gameplay in there that's fun.
And how about your thoughts on Boxer, and also my critiques of him in the game?
Response by Sirlin: I hardly play Boxer. Yeah his low rush seems slower, but that fits in with the game being generally slower all around anyway. Sad to see his throw mixup gone. And the inability to throw while charging Turn Around Punch makes you wish you could 1-button throw, doesn't it? At least his new low rush with the punch button is an overhead, that's pretty neat.
I haven't read through the 100+ comments, but I just wanted to let you know that you totally hit a lot of my frustrations with the complications of this game. I've been playing fighters for years (I'm not great but I know the mechanics) and a lot of the stuff is still confusing to me in this game. I also hate the character unlocking and am totally perplexed by the wild swings in difficulty, even on EASIEST, where I seem to be unable to get through arcade mode with akuma to unlock Gouken. This should be so simple, I did it with all the other characters on the first try, but for some reason I've failed a good six or so times with akuma. I just don't get it. A lot of it too is the completely horrible final boss, Seth. That character isn't going to win over any casual fans with his hard to predict moves. I think a lot of the "casual" comments are really coming from the Capcom PR machine. They've put so much emphasis on it in interviews that I think people are just buying it without really thinking about it. Once again, I think a lot of reviewers just aren't giving it the scrutiny it really needs.
If the fates find you in charge of an SF4 CE, Sirlin (and that would be awesome), please don't do to Dan what you did to him in Puzzle Fighter. ='(
Hey Sirlin, was wondering if you'd seen this, your take on this discovery and if it changes your opinion about street fighter 4 at all.
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2009/feb/21/sf4-game-assistance-link-combos/
Response by Sirlin: yeah it's nice feature. But it's just emphasizing even more that you're intended to spend a lot of time in the 1p environment of training mode in order to gain access to the real game.
Very interesting read and good to see a subjective and valid (from your angle) opinion about a game so hyped no one dares to say anything.
I did however not agree with some of the general thoughts you had and decided to share my view on SFIV on my blog as a "comment" to yours. If you're interested in reading it and see what it's like in the eyes of someone else with a different background than you feel free to check it out because I'd love some comments.
http://anosou.blogspot.com/2009/02/notes-on-sirlins-take-on-street-fighter.html
-anosou
Any anticipation of looking for your views on validating game balance; design ideas like focus attacks, ultras (not the combination req.), dashing, and Ex moves, should be attributed to -"And the last thing I should have mentioned here is that despite all these many problems, there is fun to be had in the game..."?, I guess.
Sure the Ultra's mirroring super combos seems dumb, but to label it dumb because (or at least inferred) because the game was targeted casual players, to me, sounds like you're detracting (you started nicely :/) from what I think is a legitimate issue. If there are game design flaws, I'd like to see you stick to rigorous criticism rather than "well it was supposed to be casual..."
Setting up button configurations is very annoying. The flaw in that design is very real, even with just a few people. (One that I was not aware of prior to this game, so it's not intuitive that that'd be an issue imo)
Two buttons for throwing is fine, if not for simplicity (and yes, it is simple, SIMPLER to me anyway, relative to Sf2 [which I suck at] because I don't have to cognate distance when deciding to throw) and whiffing. My problem with throwing is that with perfect execution it's eliminated entirely. I love Soul Calibur's system where you need to specifically use the right combo to tech out of a throw. Example.. When Siegfried has you near the edge, you know he's going to use his throw move to ring you out, so you cancel it, but he knows you know that, so he uses the move that doesn't ring you out instead, and does damage.
In the future, I'd like to see you comment on aspects (er.. "issues") of the game that can be reasonably changed with updates, and ones that can't be. If possible...
Lastly, FUCKING INFILTRATE JAPANESE CAPCOM HQ, there's such a disconnect between them and us, and by us I mean you. Sirlin-Japanese Capcom relations could result in beautiful things.
I just want them to make 360 moves easier to pull off like in HD Remix and also Fei Longs flying kick is now next to impossible to perform reliably. It seems like a simple change could make these players more fun for the less tecnically skilled. Thats what they wanted right?
I'm fine with having the standard throws be two buttons, though your point about Boxer's charge-loss is something I hadn't thought about (I don't play him). For special throws however, why have a discrepancy? Cammy, Akuma, and Gouken require the new two-button input, while Vega's air suplex only needs one.
Also, in trying some of the ridiculous combos to unlock things, I find myself playing with Killer-Instinct style timing; inputting moves before they actually come out. Chun-Li's J. Roundhouse --> crouch forward --> short lightning legs specifically requires some buffering of inputs to work. The funny thing is that long linking combos into supers or ultras actually will do (in most cases) less damage than the simpler two or three hit "standard" combo because the combo system lowers damage done as the length of combo rises.
Is the only reason to have those long links therefore to make unlocking everything harder? Why practice a combo that's 3x as difficult to do when there's no damage benefit?
so basically we should just all play rock/paper/scissors; start with 20 lives; have each gesture deal varying life points depending on which 'character' you're using; maybe add moving in and out just to add some range games lol
that way there's nothing to discover or train for, just pure strategizing & mindgames; no need to play street fighter
Response by Sirlin: Surely you see that your stance does not logically follow from what we're saying. A real-time game on a 2D plane naturally tests skills of timing and distance. You can't get around a base level of dexterity requirements, and no one is saying you should. It's adding an extra, unnecesary execution layer. Also, the concept that you don't have to train in a game with no artificial execution is absurd. You don't have to train in 1p aspects that shouldn't be there, sure. But what about all the actual gameplay and matchup knowledge? Training in ST is mostly playing against good opponents. Training in Guilty Gear is mostly 1p combos, unfortunately.
Zircon, I'm in love with you.