Some Positives About Street Fighter 4
Tuesday, February 24, 2009 at 3:05AM Yeah there's a lot of problems in SF4, but there are some good things too.
I don't know how effective Gouken is, but his design is interesting. No dragon punch, but a super and ultra dragon punch. A high counter and low counter that act somewhat like a dragon punch, but worse because he has to guess high or low and it loses to the "breaking glass" moves, like Cammy's cannon spike. The ex counter doesn't require you to guess high or low though. I beat Cammy's ultra once with an ex counter, but got hit the second time I tried. Not sure what's up with that. Also, using the counter drains your life and slowly refills it, like using a focus attack. This is an advantage for the most part, because it means your ultra guage is even more full than usual. Because his ultra is guaranteed off a normal throw (and easy), it's basically a throw super...that doubles as the occasional dragon punch super if you really need it. Ironic that landing it is so easy that it's a better "throw super" than Zangief's, at least for me.
It's painful dealing with Zangief's bad-feeling jump, as if he is a flea of some sort, and not having his hop move. And not having his low fierce from Alpha 2 and 3. But his SPD is good, with jab having ridiculously long range (great!) but low damage. SPD startup time is 2 frames, which is bad for any other Street Fighter but buff in SF4 because other throws are so slow. Opponent trying link combos on you? Mash out a jab SPD and force them to have perfect timing. Lariat is also amazing, as it always is in just about every version of Street Fighter. I could be completely wrong about this, but Zangief seems strong against Rufus and Crimson Viper (see below), but against most characters, I feel like I only win when they make mistakes. I hear he is considered very strong, but I'm not sure how you'd beat a good Ryu or Sagat. There must be a million videos on that though.
My friend plays Crimson Viper, who seems like Crimson Eddie from Guilty Gear. Eddie can invite hell (the ground spike thing), frc (cancel), instant air dash slash. The effect is you get hit from below, then a split second later, hit from above. C.Viper can do the same thing with that ground punch thing that makes dust fly up from across the screen, cancelled into a super jump then into her air flame kick thing. If you do it right, this stuff hits very fast, indeed. She can also do a bunch of bullshit crossups with that air flame kick that beat out even dragon punches if she does it right (goes behind the dragon punch and hits it usually). Not to mention her slidey punch, short, slidey punch frame trap. If you do almost anything, you get hit by short into slidey punch. I think that's how it goes, I don't know exactly. I found that picking Zangief and doing lariat negates her entire bullshit crossup game, which is fine with me.
After the initial shock of how amazingly terrible Vega is, I kind of like him in a Dan sort of way. Winning with him seems like some kind of joke to humiliate the opponent. His roll is absurdly slow ("hey guys, I'm going to duck down and start rolling, what do you think of that?"). His wall dive is also an april fools joke, moving so slow and being so vulnerable as to as to inspire actual laughter from my opponents. A terrible flip kick and seemingly bad ultra round out his moves. That said, at least he has a decent slide, good pokes, and his good jump fierce and jump strong. On the one hand, it's sad to see him in this pathetic state, but on the other, I have to admit I had fun trying to scrape out wins with him against an onslaught of focus cancel combos and links and so forth. I don't even know a combo with Vega.
Bison's safe scissor kick seems dirty somehow. I'm always up for abusing a safe attack though so doing it all day is great. You do have to low jab, low jab, low jab, low short, scissor kick to play him though (or stick a low forward in there). I can do it somewhat ok. His slide is good, his scissor kick is good, his headstomp is pretty good. Too bad his psycho crusher is worse than even the greatly toned down version in Super Turbo. Also too bad that I can't seem to do his ultra without accidentally teleporting half the time. What's up with that? His ex scissor kick going through fireballs seems like overkill. It's not like fireballs are as powerful as in SF2 series, and he didn't need it there. His stand medium kick is a decent poke and his stand roundhouse is a great poke even though it's angled up (boo). Luckily, it has a totally wonky hitbox that allows hit to hit as if the graphics for it were straight out, instead of angled up.
I don't know what's up with Rose's links. Either I can't do them or her combos from Alpha 2 don't work anymore, I don't know. She seems ok. Her low strong is no longer the terror it used to be in Alpha 2, but her new semi-broken abuse is her Ultra. It slices, it dices, it makes toast. It hits jumping opponents, attacking opponents, throwing opponents, ultraing opponents. It's everything you could ever ask for in a move. Too bad I get qcf x 2 + PP instead of PPP half the time, which wastes my super meter and gets me killed because the super doesn't have a practically half screen hitbox like the Ultra. Remember kids, you always have an ultra in Street Fighter 4, so you might as well have one that hits anything on the screen, cleanly.
Some characters I'm pretty unhappy with, but at least some are fun. I really wish I could play a version without wonky jumps, way too floaty air recoveries, way too long knock downs, and the general "stuck in jello" feel that runs through the game. That would let the good parts shine more...
Reader Comments (102)
Bleh, Safe on Block Scissor kicks allows people to mix them up, in addition ridiculous amount of pressure, it is pretty annoying.
How about talking about positive aspects of the game, and not anecdotal crap about individual character experiences.
Response by Sirlin: This is not a review, you know, and I never said it was. I don't come to your forum posts and tell you to not to post anecdotes about games you play.
mechanics of the game aside i think the biggest blunder of all with sf4 is their multilayer.
1. the que time is ridicules for finding matches
2. the no double blinds character selection i can see would become a problem at higher lvl game play
3. the whole idea of being able to accept challenge requests when playing single player is a complete miss fire. i know the idea was to create a more "arcade like" feel where ppl can just come and challenge you but unlike the arcade there isn't 4 ppl waiting to play you, there's more like 75 ppl waiting to play you. basically every two minutes you will have a new challenge come in. i love the idea of challenging randoms but this was definitely not the way to do it.
4. lastly my personal nit pick, why do i have to pay for alternate costumes?!?! Capcom! i've already dropped $60 for your game, ive gone out and bought your fight stick why are you gouging my face off so you can buy a new lazy boy chair?
Err, um. Backhanded compliments much dude? it's not super sf2, get over it. Nobody is making you play it!
Response by Sirlin: Trite internet speak much, dude? It really is possible to remove extraneous elements to improve something. No one is forcing you to care what I think or post on my site.
Are you rolling from crouncing block into ultra? If so on your second back-forward avoid hitting down at all cost. Whats more than likely happening is that at some point during your ultra input you hitting down forward on your second back -forward motion. The computer then registers this as to df, d, df and thinks you trying to do a dragon punch, hence you get the teleport instead of an ultra. Its almost as annoying as when word thinks it knows what your trying to spell and changes it when you dont want it to. The best way to avoid this is to avoid hitting down forward on one of your pass thoughs. The way I have been doing it now and it comes of pretty consitently is to do like a half cirlce forward, back to forward + 3kicks. Kind of like doing the motion for zangiefs 360 in HD remix followed by a forward plus kicks.
Response by Sirlin: Yeah sounds like you've explained it. I wish it didn't overlap like that. Good advice though.
Guys, Sirlin's not off in his criticisms. Yes, it isn't HDR, but I've played quite a few 2D fighters, and SF IV feels slower and more sluggish than all of them. There could be reasons for that. Part of it is that it feels like there's more space on the screen; therefore, jumps can't control as much space as they used to. Part of it could be that the designers wanted to emphasize dashing and the focus attack. Whatever the reason, the game *does* feel slow and sluggish, and it is a valid criticism to say so.
Online is garbage in this game, especially compared to HDR. When I hit quick match, it means I want to play a match *now.* It should be like this:
Quick match in HDR -> put me in a match. If not, I make a lobby, and quick match puts somebody into my match. Done. Easy.
Not like this:
Quick match in SF IV -> pick a lobby -> unable to join game -> pick a lobby -> unable to join game -> pick a lobby -> unable to join game -> pick a lobby -> unable to join game -> pick a lobby -> lobby owner boots me for whatever reason -> pick a lobby -> unable to join game -> pick a lobby -> finally in a match -> destroy random Ken scrub -> rinse, repeat.
Don't get me started on the lag in the games.
And yes, if I get one more teleport when I try to do Dictator's Ultra, I think I'm going to smash my stick.
Is getting a match in SFIV really more than:
Quick Match -> Can't get in -> Create a Match -> Wait for someone to Join -> Go Play?
Addtionally you can go:
Quick Match -> Can't get in -> Turn on Arcade Req -> Horse around in Arcade Mode until it puts you in a match -> Go Play?
Meaning at least you get to horse around in Arcade Mode while waiting? (but I agree that all you really want to do is play an online match)
I think a lot of the problems with Quick Match right now is that inbetween the time it shows you the game list and the time you join, someone else has already joined that game. I find if I play during off peak hours I find matches more consistently.
The Blind Select isn't 'too' big of a deal. In a real arcade [you know, the ones in America before they all went splat], both players can see their cursors who they pick and I get 'counter-picked' all the time.
Too bad I'd slaughter their supposed 'anti-Zangief' or anti-Cammy etc. picks then I get called out to be playing 'cheap'. "I don't need to counter pick to kick your ass," I say...
Although slower than the other SF's, I'll forgive it since it's 3d generated game using 2d methods. I'm probably the only one here who can fight with bison and not ever do teleport accidentally. [it rocks to escape but sucks on recovery]
This was just more whining about the game, nothing insightful really, Zangief jumps like a flea, my 10 year old rose combos don't work, Positive my ass, you just ruined my day with more bullshit.
Response by Sirlin: As opposed to your insightful post.
I have read your other comments on Street Fighter 4 also, and agree with you on all points. At first when the game was introduced to the public, I was convinced that Capcom will retain the "old school" with 2-D fighting plane. That was the "catch" to welcome back many Street Fighter veteran who, for some reasons, stopped following the Street Fighter series after Street Fighter 2, whereas I am an example. When I first had my hands on the new game (SF4), I can feel right away that there's "something" diferent in there. The gameplay is just way out range of the Street Fighter group. What makes SF so different than KoF, Fatal Fury, Tekken, etc...is its gameplay engine. And with SF4, it seems like Capcom has turned into a different approach. Change does not necessarily mean bad, however, if the core element that has brought Street Fighter into fame is changed....then the existence of the flashy Ken, Ryu, Vega are near to meaningless.
After a week of playing SF4 (following everybody's hype), I was telling myself "why do I have to force myself to play this game just because it's new?", so I went back and the good 'ol SSF2THD Remix to restore that "street fighter" kinda feeling again....
Your netcode blew balls for HDR how about all those random drops and utter bullshat mam just play the game and don't hate it's a step in right direction
An overly bitchy post Sirlin. This game is NOT ST, so stop with your hang-ups over that and accept that its a totally fresh take on an old franchise. I find it extremely whiny of you to complain about the things you've complained about in this article, because as a games designer you of all people should accept that different ppl have different design philosophies.
Response by Sirlin: as opposed to your whiny post here?
I'm liking the game, and I'm glad you're too. I don't know if you play the game online and on Xbox at all, and I hardly think this is the appropriate place to say so, but if so, I'd love to play you some time.
I'm also going to use this post to react on a few things better said in the comment page of the last article, but meh. Got to keep up with times.
There are definitely some things I'm not too fond of when I think about them, but the overall feel, to me, is good. I actually like the fact that throws are executed with 2 buttons. Call me an amateur, but I accidentally throwed some times when I really didn't want to in SF incarnations with 1 button throws. No that might not be something all bad, but when I'm trying to do something and get another thing, that usually throws me off... (although in this particular case, maybe a little less because throws knock down and give you time to adjust... but still).
With two-button throws, I rarely get the same experience, I throw when I want, and I don't throw when I do not want to. Easy.
I agree with you that some things can be considered worse than others, and not all things come down to preference, but I do feel the throw-issue DOES come down to reference. Feel free to respond if you feel I'm missing something.
Also wondering which characters you're unhappy with (aside from Vega/Balrog/Claw/Whatever-you-like-to-call-the-spaniard, who is, in fact, pretty much toned down... euphemistically speaking), and why.
I indeed get the feeling that SF4 is being sort of liberal in general execution (outside of combo's) and quickly assumes inputs that you did not intend. Of course, I'm also playing on the extremely crappy Xbox D-Pad that is absolutely the worst thing to have when playing a game with executions like SF4... Talking about bad design... Ah well, at least it works decent enough for most other games, but in Street Fighter it has literally been costing me matches...
I also do agree that the game could be just as deep and fun without emphasis on a lot of things you should practice in 1p mode. Seriously, some things just can't be learned through multiplayer matches... And even if you wouldn't necessarily need them to compete, they sure help...
I've been spending hours trying to get down combo's, and STILL I just can't do them reliably. It might take months to master them, and I just hope it'll all be worth it when that time's there.
Then again, perhaps I did detect a sense of 'nostalgic' sentiments or reluctance to approve of a new incarnation of a well-loved game in both this and you're previous article. It might be hard to accept new takes on things, but especially if you loved the 'original', it's easy to find all kinds of things wrong with a sequel. I might just be reading undertones that we're not intentionally put in there, or aren't actually there at all (and it's just me), but it's the kind of air I felt hanging around these articles.
Response by Sirlin: All I'll say is that "new = good" and "old = good" are both fallacies. So I don't think it's fair to say that I would reject every possible new thing a Street Fighter game could be on the basis that "old = good." Some things really are better than other things though, and it doesn't have to do with them being new or old.
First of all, I want to say that I highly respect you Sirlin; you really know you're Street Fighter and I love the design changes on ST Remix. I'd argue that getting counter picked is a part of life and was typical in arcades. I can see the benefit of playing with the double blind on, but what about players who use 2 characters in tourneys to counter-pick?
On focus canceling: maybe the point of focus canceling is to be clumsy. I know it's not a strong argument considering that this game is supposed to be so "beginnger friendly;" I'm just trying to get into the designers' heads. Perhaps it's a use of distraction in the game as a way to limit the ease of use of a combo or to add an element of unpredictability (maybe the player will accidentally screw up the focus cancel and give the opponent an opening?) much like when high-level players screw up common moves, like dragon punches. Either way, Ono-san said he was a big fan of Marvel vs Capcom 2 and I must say, the motion reminds me of dash canceling in that game (forward+PP, down, forward+PP, etc.). Maybe that's where he got the idea and stuck with it regardless of whether it was a good idea or not?
Response by Sirlin: Tournaments in the US (meaning tournaments where you do not have to play the same character the entire time) are double blind. Anyone can request a double blind pick during game 1. So double blind in ranked matches would more closely represent a tournament, not less closely represent it. In game 2, the winner must stay and loser can switch. There is no game 2 in online ranked matches though.
About intentional clumsiness, no I would say any designer would be shooting for that. It's more likely that when analyzing the design of focus cancels, they looked at the various positives: it leads to combos like they wanted, it leads to ultras on hit, it's kind of like a parry, etc. It did what they wanted it to do. It's just that they don't have the same objection to overly complicate things that I do. That said, it really would have been better to make the focus cancel put you in neutral state since that would have no real drawbacks and would add another positive to the list: focus cancel combos would not be harder than they need to be (instead their difficult would be...what it naturally is, rather than an extra dash).
"Response by Sirlin: All I'll say is that "new = good" and "old = good" are both fallacies. So I don't think it's fair to say that I would reject every possible new thing a Street Fighter game could be on the basis that "old = good." Some things really are better than other things though, and it doesn't have to do with them being new or old."
Well, that's a statement I happen to agree with in essence. How often do formulas need change? After all, I think we can both agree that SSF2T improved a lot of things compared to the original SF2, so I won't claim you'd write anything off due to it being new. I take this to be a misunderstanding of my actual intentions of my earlier post.
Although it's no fair to say so and I don't mean to say I absolutely think you would, it somehow seemed, from the tone of the article, that somewhere deep inside this is how you feel.
And, arguably, that is where 'preference' comes around. Just because something else is better, or worse, you can still just 'like' it better, even though it IS worse.
So, in conclusion, what I was getting at was the fact that instead of disliking differences from SF4 compared to 2 because they aren't the 'old' mechanisms, you'd possibly feel strange around them because they are not from the game you are familiar with and love, whether or not this is old or new.
If you claim that you would go into a game open-mindedly and unbiased, I'll have to take your word for it, but experience leads me to believe that this is, for most people, rarely the case.
And after all, it might be too soon to give more definite critcism, since the game's still so young.
That said, I'd like to add a few comments; first of all, I disagree about the time of knockdown. I sure think it's the longest in any game (save for those fighting games that allow you to lay down infinitely), but in no way does it hurt. It helps cross up games, at least, it does for me. It's rather the quick get-up that ruins them, and in many ways even makes them effectively impossible. Of course I agree that if you put in a function that is clearly so much better than the alternative, you might as well make it the standard. I'd rather argue that putting in the option at all isn't necessary. I don't think it ruins the game per se, but I'd like to see what it would've been like when meaties and cross-ups we're still as viable as ever.
Note that this may largely be personal preference on my side, but as we know, you probably see that differently (and rightfully so, how dull would this be if we all agreed!).
What I DO agree on, partially, is the Focus Attack Cancel issue. Why cancel a cancel? I DO feel that this is a typical example of making things FAR more complicated than they really need to be...
But then again, what do I know?
It looks like a lot of the responses assumed that Sirlin's two SF IV posts were supposed to be taken in as 1 post, as do I.
I agree that there are issues with the "default complex" nature: button configuration is backwards (unlike the EX series, with which SF IV has been compared a lot), 3 button inputs overlapping with 2 button inputs, 2 button inputs overlapping with 1 button inputs.
However, I would like to put this into perspective and say that compared to 3 2d fighters whose status I believe to be "gold" (ST, 3S, GGXX#R), I don't believe any of these three games are "default simple". The only person who has attempted to create a "default simple", tournament-ready fighter is you, Sirlin. You simplified controls, redid hitboxes, and minimized randomness to make a game more accessible. I have no problem with this (indeed, I think it is laudable and I love HDR), but I at the same time I can't say that the "default complex" nature of SF IV really hurts it, either. I have not noticed any crippling balance issues in this game (yet) unlike ST and HDR...I kinda figured that would take more precedence than weird feeling jumps.
I also think it's curious that Sirlin is noticing bullshit with every character except for Sagat.
.... Why do you do this to your self? I EXPECT A REPLY JUST LIKE THESE OTHER SLAPDICKS ALRIGHT
Response by Sirlin: Kayin is a poet, a warrior, and a gentleman. So yes, you deserve a reply more than most. Also, it's spelled "all right."
As always, thanks for your inputs Sirlin. I really enjoy reading this website and while I don't feel overall as negatively about SF4 as you do, I still agree with you on a number of points, especially the ridiculously difficult link combos.
Keep up the greatness!
Well, as someone who is a horrible hand/eye challenged newbie to Street Fighter whose been reading the site for several months, I'll throw out a few simple things from playing a tiny bit of the HDR demo, a few days of IV, then finally getting around to buying HDR:
-It is a whole heck of a lot easier to understand why you screwed up a throw with whif than just smacking them in the face with a standing fierce. Eventually after trying to throw on someone waking up in training I figured it out, but it's not near as obvious. A looot of players wouldn't have read as much about it or try it out in training to understand it. The two button is a non-issue on a standard controller for the most part, as it's on the same diagonal as your thumb (same with the actual input for a Focus)
-Similarly, Ultras are as easy as Supers and most EX moves actually easier due to more lenient timing on a controller because of the KKK and PPP buttons which are assigned by default. It makes more sense to use the B scheme with HDR's layout+them on the triggers than the default, and mashing a trigger for EX Lighting Legs isn't terribly fun, but generally it works very well for a casual pad user. There's no reason for an Ultra to not be an "EX Special" and only need 2 buttons though.
I do get the feeling, wrongly or not, that the lack of cancels on Ultras puts me on a bit more level playing field, although I pretty consistently horribly miss them and eat others' because of bad timing anyways.
-I'll agree the jumping can be a bit floaty, particularly for Chun-Li in IV, but I can't say I found HDR's jumping more natural. The old style is probably in line with expectations for early '90s 2D games, but for people who've primarily played 3D games, even of the fighting variety, IV's has a bit better sense of gravity. Partly just because it's slower it's a lot easier to time jump ins in IV (some of the aerials have pretty generous hitboxes too I think, the Hooligan Combo's throw works from crazy places regardless of being slow as hell), but the twitchy jump diagonal rushes in ST are pretty neat. I can see how Zangief's jumping could be a specific problem, but a lot of people seem to be doing fine with it the way it is so that may just be a matter of getting used to it. This may just be the way it is as long as they're reducing overall game speed. If you want all those Kens to punish jump-ins, they need enough time to remember how to Shoryuken. :p
It's pretty ridiculous when Gen's first Trial 2 special is a 6 or 7 hit link with god awful hard timing.
Anyone else having trouble doing Sagat's "Fake Kick" trial?
Dear Sirlin,
Your HD Remix Fei Long>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SF4 Fei Long.
Seriously, screw the 12369 motion.
Signed,
X